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giffords and her husband, former astronaut mark kelly have now launched their own campaign for tougher gun laws. capitalizing on the public outcry that followed december's mass shooting at an elementary school in newtown, connecticut. >> after 20 kids and six of their teachers were gunned down in their classrooms at sandy hook, we said, th time must be different. something needs to be done. we are simply two reasonable americans who have said enough. >> ifill: but at today's hearings, national rifle association vice president wayne lapierre pushed back insisting that the real solution to gun violence is to enforce existing laws. >> unfortunately, we've seen a dramatic collapse in federal gun prosecutions in recent years. overall in 2011, federal weapons prosecutions per capita were down 35% from their peak in the previous administration. that means violent felons, gang members and the mentally ill who possess firearms are not being prosecuted. and that's unacceptable. proposing more gun control laws, while failing to enforce the thousands we already have is not a serious solution to re
giffords and her husband, former astronaut mark kelly have now launched their own campaign for tougher gun laws. capitalizing on the public outcry that followed december's mass shooting at an elementary school in newtown, connecticut. >> after 20 kids and six of their teachers were gunned down in their classrooms at sandy hook, we said, th time must be different. something needs to be done. we are simply two reasonable americans who have said enough. >> ifill: but at today's...
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our first witness is mark kelly. he's -- our first witness is mark can kelly, retired astronaut and co-founded americans for potential solutions. thsz an advocacy that promotes to prevent gun violence and protect responsible gun ownership, with his wife, former congresswoman gabrielle giffords. please go ahead, sir. >> thank you chairman leahy and ranking member grassry for inviting me today. i look forward to an instructive dialogue with your committeeant want to take the opportunity to congratulate gabby's friend jeff lake on new role as arizona's junior senator. as you know, our family has been immeasurableably affected by gun violence. gabby's gift for speech is a distant gg? news breaks to yet another tragic shooting. after 20 kids and six of their teachers were gunned down in their classrooms at sandy hook elementary, we said this time must be different. something needs to be done. we're simply two reasonable americans who have said enough. on january 8th of 2011, a young man walked up to gabby at her constitue
our first witness is mark kelly. he's -- our first witness is mark can kelly, retired astronaut and co-founded americans for potential solutions. thsz an advocacy that promotes to prevent gun violence and protect responsible gun ownership, with his wife, former congresswoman gabrielle giffords. please go ahead, sir. >> thank you chairman leahy and ranking member grassry for inviting me today. i look forward to an instructive dialogue with your committeeant want to take the opportunity to...
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our first witness is mark kelly. he's -- our first witness is mark can kelly, retired astronaut and co-founded americans for potential solutions. thsz an advocacy that promotes to prevent gun violence and protect responsible gun ownership, with his wife, former congresswoman gabrielle giffords. please go ahead, sir. >> thank you chairman leahy and ranking member grassry for inviting me today. i look forward to an instructive dialogue with your committeeant want to take the opportunity to congratulate gabby's friend jeff lake on new role as arizona's junior senator. as you know, our family has been immeasurableably affected by gun violence. gabby's gift for speech is a distant memory. she struggles to walk and partially blind. a year ago she left the job she loved, serving the people of arizona. but in the past two years, we have watched gabby's determination and spirit and intel lekt conquer her disabilities. we're speaking to you today as americans. we're a lot like many fellow citizens following this debate about g
our first witness is mark kelly. he's -- our first witness is mark can kelly, retired astronaut and co-founded americans for potential solutions. thsz an advocacy that promotes to prevent gun violence and protect responsible gun ownership, with his wife, former congresswoman gabrielle giffords. please go ahead, sir. >> thank you chairman leahy and ranking member grassry for inviting me today. i look forward to an instructive dialogue with your committeeant want to take the opportunity to...
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our first witness is mark kelly. he is a, first witness is mark kelly. he is a retired astronaut in u.s. navy captain. captain kelly recently cofounded americans for responsible solutions. this is an advocacy group that promotes solutions to prevent gun violence, and protect responsible gun ownership. did it with his wife, former congresswoman gabrielle giffords. so, captain kelly, please go ahead, sir. >> thank you, chairman leahy and ranking member grassley for inviting me here today ? . >> we are simply two reasonable americans who have said, enough. on january 8th of 2011 a young man walked up to gabby at her constituent event in tucson, leveled his gun and shot her through the head. he then turned down the line and continued firing. in 15 seconds he emptied his magazine. it contained 33 bullets and there were 33 wounds. as the shooter attempted to reload he fumbled. a woman grabbed the next magazine, and others restrained him. gabby was the first victim. christina taylor green, nine years old, born on 9-11-2001 was shot with the 13th bullet or after
our first witness is mark kelly. he is a, first witness is mark kelly. he is a retired astronaut in u.s. navy captain. captain kelly recently cofounded americans for responsible solutions. this is an advocacy group that promotes solutions to prevent gun violence, and protect responsible gun ownership. did it with his wife, former congresswoman gabrielle giffords. so, captain kelly, please go ahead, sir. >> thank you, chairman leahy and ranking member grassley for inviting me here today ?...
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. >> giffords husband mark kelly says expanding background checks should be a top priority but the nra's chief executive yesterday refused to give any ground. >> we know from what happened in tucson that if there was an effective background check which includes having the mental health data and the person's drug use in the case of the tucson shooter into the system and if, in fact, there was no gun show loophole, i would contend he would have had a very difficult time getting a gun. if background checks are good enough for somebody who is a federal firearms licensed dealer like walmart, for instance where i just purchased a gun a couple months ago, a hunting rifle and i had to good through a background check, why isn't that good for other sales? >> my problem with background checks is you'll never get criminals to go through universal background checks. i mean, all the law abiding people. you'll create an enormous federal bureaucracy. >> we're not going to prosecute the bad guys if they do catch one. and none of it makes any sense in the real world. >> that's the point. the criminals won
. >> giffords husband mark kelly says expanding background checks should be a top priority but the nra's chief executive yesterday refused to give any ground. >> we know from what happened in tucson that if there was an effective background check which includes having the mental health data and the person's drug use in the case of the tucson shooter into the system and if, in fact, there was no gun show loophole, i would contend he would have had a very difficult time getting a gun....
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giffords and her husband, former astronaut mark kelly have now launched their own campaign for tougher gun laws. capitalizing on the public outcry that followed december's mass shooting at an elementary school in newtown, connecticut. >> after 20 kids and six of their teachers were gunned down in their classrooms at sandy hook, we said, this time must be different. something needs to be done. we are simply two reasonable americans who have said enough. >> ifill: but at today's hearings, national rifle association vice president wayne lapierre pushed back insisting that the real solution to gun violence is to enforce existing laws. >> unfortunately, we've seen a dramatic collapse in federal gun prosecutions in recent years. overall in 2011, federal weapons prosecutions per capita were down 35% from their peak in the previous administration. that means violent felons, gang members and the mentally ill who possess firearms are not being prosecuted. and that's unacceptable. proposing more gun control laws, while failing to enforce the thousands we already have is not a serious solution to
giffords and her husband, former astronaut mark kelly have now launched their own campaign for tougher gun laws. capitalizing on the public outcry that followed december's mass shooting at an elementary school in newtown, connecticut. >> after 20 kids and six of their teachers were gunned down in their classrooms at sandy hook, we said, this time must be different. something needs to be done. we are simply two reasonable americans who have said enough. >> ifill: but at today's...
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mark kelly is being asked questions by the panel. >> possibly been in the national instant background check system about him that would have prevented him from buying a gun through a background check. that's part of the solution. the other problem, let's say he was denied, denied the purchase of the gun which he purchased in november of 2010, it would have been very easy for him to go to a gun show and purchase a gun without a background check. so you know, there are several things that need to be done and in my opinion and in gabby's opinion, this is one of the most important things we must do to prevent criminals, terrorists and the mentally ill from having easy access to guns. closing the gun show loophole and requiring private sellers to require a background check before they transfer a gun is -- i mean, for us, i can't think of something that would make our country safer than doing just that. >> thank you. >> and mr. lapierre, in 1999 you testified by the house judiciary committee and you testified quote, nobody is more committed than we are to keeping guns out of criminals hands
mark kelly is being asked questions by the panel. >> possibly been in the national instant background check system about him that would have prevented him from buying a gun through a background check. that's part of the solution. the other problem, let's say he was denied, denied the purchase of the gun which he purchased in november of 2010, it would have been very easy for him to go to a gun show and purchase a gun without a background check. so you know, there are several things that...
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i spoke to mark kelly yesterday about his testimony. he said that we're both -- he and congresswoman giffords, are moderate gun owners. they own guns. they have been supporters of gun rights for a long time. he also said that he hopes that they can do something about the safety of our kids and our communities. one tidbit he told me is that he and gabby giffords used to go together to the nra practice range just outside of washington. he almost joined the nra himself but never got around to it. that's their perspective. and then of course on the other side of the witness table the last person we will hear from will be wayne lapierre who will say a lot of familiar things that we've heard from him over the years but even more specifically since the shootings at newtown he's going to say in fact his prepared remarks say that he's going to say law abiding gun owners will not accept the blame for acts of violence of deranged criminals. expect him to be as combative and defiant for people who own guns as he has in the past. >> i'm sitting here
i spoke to mark kelly yesterday about his testimony. he said that we're both -- he and congresswoman giffords, are moderate gun owners. they own guns. they have been supporters of gun rights for a long time. he also said that he hopes that they can do something about the safety of our kids and our communities. one tidbit he told me is that he and gabby giffords used to go together to the nra practice range just outside of washington. he almost joined the nra himself but never got around to it....
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our first witness is mark kelly. he is a retired astronauts and u.s. navy capt. and he recently co-founded americans for responsible solutions. says an advocacy group that promotes solutions to prevent gun violence and protect responsible gun ownership. he did it with his wife, former congresswoman gabrielle giffords. capt. kelly, please go ahead, sir. >> thank yo for inviting me here today. i look forward to a constructive and constructive dialogue with your committee. i want to take the opportunity to congratulate gay's friend jeff flake as you know, our family has been immeasurably affected by gun violence. gaby's gift for speech as a distant memory. she struggles to walk. she is partially blind. a year ago, she left the job she loved, serving the people of arizona. in the past two years, we have watched her determination, spirit, and intellect, per disabilities. we are not here as victims. we are speaking to you today as americans. we are a lot like many of our fellow citizens following this debate about gun violence where moderates. , gaby was a republican l
our first witness is mark kelly. he is a retired astronauts and u.s. navy capt. and he recently co-founded americans for responsible solutions. says an advocacy group that promotes solutions to prevent gun violence and protect responsible gun ownership. he did it with his wife, former congresswoman gabrielle giffords. capt. kelly, please go ahead, sir. >> thank yo for inviting me here today. i look forward to a constructive and constructive dialogue with your committee. i want to take the...
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her husband, captain mark kelly, also testified. kelly's message, demanding change is not the same as taking away people's guns. >> we take that right very seriously, and we would never, ever give it up, just like gabby would never relinquish her gun, and i would never relinquish mine. but rights demand responsibility. >> giffords and kelly are pleading on behalf of common sense here. this is why gun safety opponents like the nra's wayne lapierre need to create multiple straw men instead of talking about the facts. the gun lobby will do anything to keep all guns free from restrictions. fewer restrictions means more sales, which means more money for gunmakers and manufacturers and guys like wayne lapierre. >> if you try to do this universal background check, which sounds whatever, it ends up being a universal federal nightmare imposed upon law-abiding people all over this country. criminals will ignore it. so what is the point of the whole thing? >> this is lapierre's newest argument. a universal background check won't do anything, h
her husband, captain mark kelly, also testified. kelly's message, demanding change is not the same as taking away people's guns. >> we take that right very seriously, and we would never, ever give it up, just like gabby would never relinquish her gun, and i would never relinquish mine. but rights demand responsibility. >> giffords and kelly are pleading on behalf of common sense here. this is why gun safety opponents like the nra's wayne lapierre need to create multiple straw men...
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mark kelly is in "the situation room." come on in, mark. we're going to talk about what happened today and where you stand on all of this right after this commercial break. ...tax time can ofbe...well...taxing. so right now we'll give you... ...$10 off any turbo tax deluxe level software or higher! find thousands of big deals now... ...at officemax. delicious. but say i press a few out flat... add some beef sloppy joe sauce... and cheese fold it all up and boom! i just made an unbeatable unsloppy joe pillsbury grands biscuits. let the making begin. until i got a job in the big apple. becoming a fulltime indoor cat wasn't easy for atti. but he had purina cat chow indoor. he absolutely loved it. and i knew he was getting everything he needed to stay healthy indoors. and after a couple of weeks, i knew we were finally home! [ female announcer ] purina cat chow indoor. and for a delicious way to help maintain a healthy weight, try new purina cat chow healthy weight. when the doctor told me that i could smoke for the first week... i'm like...yea
mark kelly is in "the situation room." come on in, mark. we're going to talk about what happened today and where you stand on all of this right after this commercial break. ...tax time can ofbe...well...taxing. so right now we'll give you... ...$10 off any turbo tax deluxe level software or higher! find thousands of big deals now... ...at officemax. delicious. but say i press a few out flat... add some beef sloppy joe sauce... and cheese fold it all up and boom! i just made an...
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mark kelly, the husband of former congresswoman gabrielle giffords, joins us next. and former adviser to the romney campaign, dan senor, is here. keep it right here on "morning joe." [ woman ] ring. ring. progresso. i just served my mother-in-law your chicken noodle soup but she loved it so much... i told her it was homemade. everyone tells a little white lie now and then. but now she wants my recipe [ clears his throat ] [ softly ] she's right behind me isn't she? [ male announcer ] progresso. you gotta taste this soup. in the middle of the night it can be frustrating. it's hard to turn off and go back to sleep. intermezzo is the first and only prescription sleep aid approved for use as needed in the middle of the night when you can't get back to sleep. it's an effective sleep medicine you don't take before bedtime. take it in bed only when you need it and have at least four hours left for sleep. do not take intermezzo if you have had an allergic reaction to drugs containing zolpidem, such as ambien. allergic reactions such as shortness of breath or swelling of you
mark kelly, the husband of former congresswoman gabrielle giffords, joins us next. and former adviser to the romney campaign, dan senor, is here. keep it right here on "morning joe." [ woman ] ring. ring. progresso. i just served my mother-in-law your chicken noodle soup but she loved it so much... i told her it was homemade. everyone tells a little white lie now and then. but now she wants my recipe [ clears his throat ] [ softly ] she's right behind me isn't she? [ male announcer ]...
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in fact her husband mark kelly broke the news of today's gunfire in phoenix to everybody at that hearing. the national rifle association's executive vice president wane lap peer also testified there. we will hear from both sides coming up inside fox report. first though a u.s. senator denies any role in a case involving hookers, a private plane, and a wealthy eye doctor. fbi agents raided that doctor's clinic last night in south florida. sea long-time friend and donor to the democratic senator bob menendez of new jersey. he is the chairman of a powerful foreign relations committee. it's still not clear whether the raid involved the senator but it would not be the first time the two men have been linked. back in november, the conservative web site the daily caller interviewed prostitutes who said the senator paid them for sex in the dominican republic. the article claimed the senator flew to that country on the doctor's private jet. late today the senator's office acknowledged that he has traveled on that jet, but says that he paid for the trips properly. his office released a statement t
in fact her husband mark kelly broke the news of today's gunfire in phoenix to everybody at that hearing. the national rifle association's executive vice president wane lap peer also testified there. we will hear from both sides coming up inside fox report. first though a u.s. senator denies any role in a case involving hookers, a private plane, and a wealthy eye doctor. fbi agents raided that doctor's clinic last night in south florida. sea long-time friend and donor to the democratic senator...
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but also james johnson, the chief of police of baltimore county, and captain mark kelly, astronaut, navy veteran, and the husband of congresswoman gabby giffords. gabby giffords, of course, was shot in the head by a mentally ill gunman in an assassination attempt in january 2011. today in an emotionally charged and at times contentious testimony, the most moving part of the day happen right at the very beginning with a surprise addition to the witness list as gabby giffords herself made her way down the aisle into the hearing room to deliver a short statement to the senators and the assembled media and the audience. this was a surprise today. it was clear that this was not something that was easy for her to do. >> okay. thank you for inviting me here today. this is an important conversation for our children, for our communities, for democrats and republicans. speaking is difficult, but i need to say something important. violence is a big problem. too many children are dying. too many children. we must do something. it will be hard, but the time is now. you must act. be bold, be courageou
but also james johnson, the chief of police of baltimore county, and captain mark kelly, astronaut, navy veteran, and the husband of congresswoman gabby giffords. gabby giffords, of course, was shot in the head by a mentally ill gunman in an assassination attempt in january 2011. today in an emotionally charged and at times contentious testimony, the most moving part of the day happen right at the very beginning with a surprise addition to the witness list as gabby giffords herself made her way...
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to give a sense of how it matched up, mark kelly and wayne la pierre, the ceo of the nra outlined the essence of the hearing. >> gabby and i are pro gun ownership. we are also anti-gun violence. rights demand responsibility. this right does not extend to terrorists. it does not extend to criminals and it does not extend to the mentally ill. when dangerous people get guns, we are all vulnerable. >> a third of our schools right now have armed security already because it works. more gun laws while failing to enforce the thousands we already have is not a serious solution for reducing crime. proposals that only serve to burden the law-abiding will fail again in the future. >> only a couple of times did wane la pierre get into it with a member of the committee. over the hours, it was a reasonable back and forth. it was not the fireworks that some people might have expected. while he opposes the universal background checks, he came with an argument to make saying over and over again, there not prosecutions of laws that are on the books, trying to put the pressure back on the justice departm
to give a sense of how it matched up, mark kelly and wayne la pierre, the ceo of the nra outlined the essence of the hearing. >> gabby and i are pro gun ownership. we are also anti-gun violence. rights demand responsibility. this right does not extend to terrorists. it does not extend to criminals and it does not extend to the mentally ill. when dangerous people get guns, we are all vulnerable. >> a third of our schools right now have armed security already because it works. more...
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. >> at the same hearing giffords' husband mark kelly pushed forward requiring background checks but wayne la pea year of the national rifle association said criminals never submit to them. >> we're going to make all the law-abiding people go through the system and we're not going to prosecute any of the bad guys if we do catch one, and none of it makes any sense in the real world. >> requiring private sellers to require a background check before they transfer a gun is -- i mean for us, i can't think of something that would make our country safer than doing just that. >> during his testimony kelly made reference to another shooting in arizona. a gunman opened fire at a phoenix office yesterday. one person was killed. two others were wounded. and the gunman is on the run. >>> city officials in newtown, connecticut, where 26 people were shot dead at an elementary school are calling for tougher gun control measures. hundreds attend add hearing last night and randall pinkston reports. >> reporter: skyla lewis set the picture of her son jesse. he was among the 26 killed at sandy hook elem
. >> at the same hearing giffords' husband mark kelly pushed forward requiring background checks but wayne la pea year of the national rifle association said criminals never submit to them. >> we're going to make all the law-abiding people go through the system and we're not going to prosecute any of the bad guys if we do catch one, and none of it makes any sense in the real world. >> requiring private sellers to require a background check before they transfer a gun is -- i...
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she and her husband mark kelly, the former astronaut, founded a big political action committee exercise last year, basically up veiled it last month with the expressed purpose of advocating gun control laws and come batting the nra wane wayne lapierre testified today well. lapierre says he opposed background checks at gun shows. everybody knows that the polls show that hunters and huntsman think it's good deal. gun control have gas roots and way better professional lobbying effort than the gun control crowd. a ban on semiautomatic rifles is going to be really really tough especially for democrats in red states. now even limiting high ammunition magazines is going to be met with a ton of resistance, bill. >> rosen, there is a story floating around, we have not covered it because it might not be fair. senator robert menendez of new jersey, a friend of his is in big trouble. fbi raided the friends' home in florida today. and there is some unsavory stuff floating around. be careful, rosen, but tell me what you know not speculation about this story. >> all right. bill, we know as an indisput
she and her husband mark kelly, the former astronaut, founded a big political action committee exercise last year, basically up veiled it last month with the expressed purpose of advocating gun control laws and come batting the nra wane wayne lapierre testified today well. lapierre says he opposed background checks at gun shows. everybody knows that the polls show that hunters and huntsman think it's good deal. gun control have gas roots and way better professional lobbying effort than the gun...
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mark kelly yesterday. >> i'm a strong supporter of the second amendment as anybody on this panel. my wife would not be sitting in this seat, she would not have been sitting here today if we had stronger background checks. >> stephanie: the "washington post" did a piece perhaps the most important moment in yesterday's senate hearings when mark kelly directly confronted wayne lapierre over the shooting of his wife and another one involving dick durbin. lapierres argument was completely unmasked. he repeatedly voiced the talking point there is no need to expand the background system because criminals don't cooperate. kelly said he said his plan was to assassinate my wife. but because of the gaps in the mental health system those -- we would have likely failed a background check. if we require private sellers to complete a background check and we get those records into the system we will prevent these kinds of crimes. good for him. mark kelley again yesterday. >> he did not have access to a high capacity magazine and the same thing happened christina tailor green would be alive today.
mark kelly yesterday. >> i'm a strong supporter of the second amendment as anybody on this panel. my wife would not be sitting in this seat, she would not have been sitting here today if we had stronger background checks. >> stephanie: the "washington post" did a piece perhaps the most important moment in yesterday's senate hearings when mark kelly directly confronted wayne lapierre over the shooting of his wife and another one involving dick durbin. lapierres argument was...
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i am proud to say that steve barton has made the sandy hook promise, gabby giffords and mark kelly have also. tens of thousands of americans from connecticut and across the country have made the sandy hook promise as an ally. -- as have i.. i want to ask mr. la irerre if -- mr. lapierre, will you make the promise? >> we have advocated putting our security in the schools, fixing the mental health system, computerizing the records of those mentally adjudicated. i would hope we could convince some of these companies -- by mdot talking about the first amendment -- to stop putting out the violent video games and finally, we need to enforce the reasonable gun laws on but books that the nra supports. >> can i take that as a yes? >> yes, that is a yes. we have 11,000 policemen -- >> can i invite and urge you to advocate the responsible gun owners and i thank them for being responsible gun owners, also joined in the sense of promise? -- the sandy hook promised? >> there is not a law-abiding firearms owner across the united states that was not torn to pieces by what happened in sandy ". they just
i am proud to say that steve barton has made the sandy hook promise, gabby giffords and mark kelly have also. tens of thousands of americans from connecticut and across the country have made the sandy hook promise as an ally. -- as have i.. i want to ask mr. la irerre if -- mr. lapierre, will you make the promise? >> we have advocated putting our security in the schools, fixing the mental health system, computerizing the records of those mentally adjudicated. i would hope we could...
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her husband, mark kelly, an nra ceo wayne lapierre also testified. this hearing is just under four hours. [no audio] >> we have more than 200 people here today and hundreds more watching on our committee web cast. i expect everybody in this room to be respectful of the senators and the witnesses speaking about this very serious subject. i do not want applause for or against any position. the capitol police have been notified to remove any audience interference in an effort to have orderly conduct for that. that is a warning i give the many hearings. we will hear a lot of perspective on gun violence. i will give opening statements. but we have a former member of congress here, gaby giffords who will give a brief message and believed and captain kelly, thank you for your help in bringing your wife here. ms. giffords - >> ok. thank you for inviting me here today. this is an important conversation for our children, for our communities, for democrats and republicans. speaking is difficult but i need to say something important. violence is a big problem. t
her husband, mark kelly, an nra ceo wayne lapierre also testified. this hearing is just under four hours. [no audio] >> we have more than 200 people here today and hundreds more watching on our committee web cast. i expect everybody in this room to be respectful of the senators and the witnesses speaking about this very serious subject. i do not want applause for or against any position. the capitol police have been notified to remove any audience interference in an effort to have orderly...
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americans are counting on you. >> giffords' husband, mark kelly, also testified. so did nra head juan wayne la p and also the chief of baltimore county, the chairman of the national law enforcement partnership to prevent gun violence. he joins us right now. chief, you are really on the front lines of this gun debate so i want to ask you, if you could get one thing, change one thing when it comes to guns and gun violence, what's the one measure you would choose? >> well, it's definitely going to be a universal background check. i think most in law enforcement would agree that a universal background check certainly would make it more difficult for people who are trying to get weapons, keep them out of their hands. in fact from 1994 to 2009, nearly two million prohibited purchases were stopped. so we know this is going to work. obviously increasing penalties for those who try to straw purchase for someone else, i really think this will ve a tremendous impact. >> so wayne la pierre of the nra doesn't agree with you. at the hearing yesterday he said that criminals will
americans are counting on you. >> giffords' husband, mark kelly, also testified. so did nra head juan wayne la p and also the chief of baltimore county, the chairman of the national law enforcement partnership to prevent gun violence. he joins us right now. chief, you are really on the front lines of this gun debate so i want to ask you, if you could get one thing, change one thing when it comes to guns and gun violence, what's the one measure you would choose? >> well, it's...